When a man is involved in
meditation he says, "Oh, God prolong the hours so that they
may never finish, never end." Any time spent in separation
should be shortened.
May the time be
hastened when I can make that statement.
Yes, prolonged. Pray
that the days and nights be prolonged.
My wife was
wondering, based on a remark of Yours the other night, if we
can work off some of our karma in dreams. Would you explain
it a bit more?
Sometimes it happens
that man has to go into another life but in special cases
Master can pass that life in dreams, you see. You will feel,
you will see everything. But it happens rarely.
And you can work
off that other life in dreams?
The Master makes it
work off, not you. Not all.
So, in other
words, the dreams that you're dreaming are working off that
extra life that otherwise you would have to come back here
No, no, no. Generally
all dreams are only reactions of our many thoughts which
occur to us during the day and are not completed. There are
dreams and there are visions. There's a vast difference
between the two. Sometimes in dreams you're not clear at the
time; in the morning when you rise you think that you have
seen something. But in visions, you see; you are wide awake;
you see things. You remember at the time, and quite vividly
even in the morning. They are called visions. So there is a
vast difference between the two. Dreams are quite hazy. You
are not quite conscious at the time.
Explain dreams a
bit more, won't you? Quite a few people say that they have
been having unusual dreams since they came here. Someone was
saying that tonight.
What sort? Most of
them will be reactions of the past that come to view. Some
dreams, as I explained are not dreams; they're visions. You
can meet the Master; you can see many future things which
are going to happen. These are visions. Sometimes it happens
that we dream of something and years after, you happen to be
there. They are visions. Any unusual thoughts, dreams?
Let me hear them.
Nobody wants to
admit that they had some unusual dreams.
Yes, let us hear one,
two, for instance.
I don't try to
remember them. I have been having a lot of dreams.
A dream is always
hazy, not clear, disconnected. In the morning you may have a
hazy idea about it; so these dreams are not unusual - any
dream which is unfinished, uncompleted, happenstance, some
head here and tail there, disconnected. Some dreams even
from the past do come. They're not reliable, I tell you.
Visions are reliable.
When you go to
sleep and you may be half asleep and then you start to leave
the body, your soul starts to move up, is that going into a
vision or ...
If you are in a dream
you go to sleep; are you conscious?
No, not if you
are asleep. You are going asleep and all of a sudden you
become conscious that your soul is rising.
Yes, the soul
withdraws. That's all right.
So what does
You've relaxed. You've
withdrawn. In sleep we are in the habit of leaving the body.
We withdraw from the body outside, then go down. You have
dreams in the gullet. If you go into the navel, then you're
in sound sleep. In visions you're wide awake; the body
sleeps. The more you relax, the more you'll feel withdrawn.
But it feels as
if the soul is going up.
Let it go; leave the
body. Don't be attached to it. That is withdrawal. That's
good. Relax fully (as in meditation). That is why I say,
"sit there for a while and then rise. Just go. Go up." The
question is of full relaxation. You may be sitting, may be
lying. When lying the only fear is of going to sleep. But
the same process is there. In sleep also we withdraw. Once
somebody asked Prophet Mohammed, "Do you sleep?" He said,
"My body sleeps. I do not sleep." The soul does not sleep;
I was very sorry
the other evening when you asked us to step into your
bedroom; the tape had run out and at that time you had
several comments on consciousness that I wished very much
that we had recorded. Could you repeat them?
What was the subject?
What was the question? I give out as it comes.
I asked You if
You Yourself did any sleeping and then You came up with this
answer that I wasn't able to record.
When you withdraw the
first process is the same in both sleep and meditation. The
soul withdraws from outside, withdraws from the body below
and comes to the back of the eyes. Eyes are like those in a
man who dies, you see. That is the usual process. Now in
dreams the soul descends into the gullet and sees dreams; in
sound sleep, it descends to the navel. But (in visions)
there you'll be able to remain conscious and the body will
sleep. So the need for sleep is lessened, the more you are
accustomed to it. You can usually sleep six hours, seven
hours, five hours, four hours, three hours. We've seen many
cases who only sleep one hour, two hours. That is sort of
what you experience when you completely leave the physical
body. In meditation the body takes rest, but you are wide
I remember when
I asked you whether you slept any yourself and you asked me,
"Are you worried?" and the answer was, "Yes." Perhaps I
should not be worried about this but I have a little worry
about it. Do you ever sleep at all? Ever?
Yes, why not?
The rumor is
that you don't get much.
Less than an hour or
two. That is relaxation, sometimes when I'm tired. As you go
on your need for sleep is lessened, as I told you.
But in that hour
you're able to recuperate? For the next 23 hours?
Yes, there is
recharging. Daily you recoup. On spiritual health depends
the life of mind and body both. Soul withdraws and again you
come back in. That is recharging. When you're very tired,
then recharging comes. The curative power is in the soul.
Medicines merely help to clear the way, that's all. I
remember in 1914 1 was sitting in the office of a doctor. He
wrote a long prescription, I think with eight or ten
medicines and asked his compounder to dispense. I was
watching; he hardly put one thing in it, and then added
water, distilled water. I asked him, "What are you doing?"
He said, "This is to satisfy the people. The real work is
from nature working, soul working. The curative power is
there. I give only a little something, tincture of ginger,
acid, soda bicarbonate and so on, that's all. And it takes
Is there anyone
at all in the West today of Thoreau's caliber?
Maybe, how will it
help, you? Even in you, you have got some light. Is there
any doubt about it? Yes, when I initiate I tell them, "Look
here, you have got something with the grace of God." By
parallel study of religion I found that this was the high
road and by meeting different Masters and sitting at the
feet of my own Master I found that which has been conveyed
to you, with the Grace of God. I could find nothing better
so far. If perchance you get something better, I request you
to take me with you. After all, we are after Truth. This
saved some people from wrong propaganda. They made mountains
of molehills and various gurus have not proved true. They
tried to bring their own men to the highest possible by
propaganda. That is not right, you see.
I think ____
would willingly admit in India the spiritual leadership
comes from today but she's being a little provincial and is
wondering if North America may not have someone who comes
close to Thoreau at least so that we can have somebody
seventy to eighty percent over there as Thoreau was; I
believe you said the other day
(In the talk of Sept. 7 which was not recorded, Master said
that Thoreau came closest to being an illuminate in the U.S.
- perhaps seventy to eighty percent)...
Maybe less or more.
The world is not without Them after all. A few must be
there. That cannot be denied. Mainly the center of
spirituality has been India. Central Asia, India, has been
the main place. History shows that. But you have got
sufficient advancement in the material way. What more do you
thinking about Satsangis at all, Master. We have You. We
don't need any other Master.
I'm not Master, I tell
you. God in me is the Master. I never dream that I'm the
Master. I see some Power helping others; all thanks go to
Him, not me.
You don't mind
us calling you Master, though, do you?
This is a misnomer.
God is the Master. There is some word for it, maybe Master
or Teacher or elder brother or father. If you call me
father, your brother, or your friend, what difference does
I notice the
other day someone referred to you as Maharaj.
Maharaj means "highest
person." That's all. Words. These are words. Really the
Maharaj is that which is within me. That is within you, too.
I think somebody
had another question back there.
Yes, come up. It may
be the worst of questions. Don't be afraid. No reservations,
and I hope that I will reply to the best I know. Don't feel
reserved, you see. Tell me, like the daughter comes to the
father, as the son comes to the father, as the brother comes
to the brother. Where's the question of reservation? Not in
me. Don't be ashamed.
While you have
the chance, ask it.
I was wondering,
Master, why you give names, separate names, five different
names to the Moslems.
Yes, what is the
reason? There were saints in the Moslems' religion too. They
had the same words translated into Arabic, meaning the same
thing. But it is only the charging that helps, not the
words, mind that. All Scriptures say you must remember God
through a Saint. What is the reason? Charging is the action
behind it. I'll give you an example which I tell at the time
of initiation. One man was bitten by a scorpion; there is
pain. The man who has got that incantation, breathes several
words and that pain is lessened. The same words may be
repeated by another who has a Ph.D. and so many other
degrees, but those words don't work. The man who has that
competence can even ask a little child to repeat the names.
His words will help - that is the charging, thought
transference, of the words. These names are given in the
books. Anybody can give them. Our Master used to say, "Even
the spinning girl can give you these five names. But they
don't carry the charging, you see. Only the charging will
give you experience."
What is the
nature of the charge that you put into the words?
Thought transference. It works through the thought
transference. The words are charged because the thought
transference is there. Now I tell you, these names are given
by so many; but the people don't get any experience. When
anybody (initiated by another) comes to me and asks, I
simply say, "Repeat these names: all right, now sit down."
And by thought transference he gets experience. You follow
And further, one thing more. If you leave fruit-bearing
trees to nature, they will take six to seven years to bear
fruit. If they are handled by scientific ways those very
fruit trees will give you fruit in two or three years. So
these words coming from a competent Man, will increase your
progress within. What you would do in a hundred years you
can do in, say, three years. That's the difference. The
words work against the Negative Power behind. Moreover, if
the Negative Power appears or there are any delusions
created within, and you repeat the Names (the words which
carry the thought transference) they'll be off. The charging
What you are
saying in part is that if you chose you could pick just any
five names at all and give them to us.
Any, yes. That's why I
give them in Arabic.
Do you give any
other combinations of names -- Persian?
Persian is Arabic. Any
man may say, "All right, say 'Ram', say, 'God.'" That Ram,
God, conveys only one aspect of the case. One aspect. Ram is
permeating through all creation. And the word Ram means
that. That is one side. These five words correspond to
different Planes and explain the whole creation.
But I mean You
could at initiation give, "Apples, pears, prunes ... If You
gave it, that's the thing that counts.
I never give anything,
and the people have the experience. That's thought
transference. Children on initiation day, ten- twenty-
thirty children sit down, they see Light. They are not given
the names. That is thought transference. You repeat the
names. Those who are given names which are not charged with
transference say they'll bear fruit in years. These (charged
words) will bear fruit then and there; in months. It makes a
vast difference. I've seen such-like instances. When they're
initiated, they're given the same names and told, "All
right, you go on with it. It will take time." Then he
sometimes starts by putting one hour, two hours daily, (with
no results), so they are told to put in more time. Such like
people have come to me. They said that they were told, "All
right, simply put in more time." They began to give four to
five hours a day. With all that they did not get experience.
Fortunately or unfortunately they came up to me. "All right,
sit down. God gives it." So thought transference is the main
thing. Words are only a means to it, in a very scientific
What is the
purpose of creating the planet earth in the divine plan?
Who created it? You
should go to Him and ask Him. What is the purpose for which
I'm making Manav Kendra? After all, some purpose is there. I
wish it. I'm inspired. I wish all men should sit together
without any labels. They may be of any religion, but they
are men first. The purpose is there, of course. God wanted
to create earth, after all nobody can question Him like
that. When you reach Him you'll have no intellect, no
Is that answer
available at the top of the mental plane, too?
So the answer is
really, go meditate some more.
You are in a house now
on fire. You must try now to go out to save yourself.
Instead of your asking, "Who put it on fire?; with what
purpose?; why has it been done?" When you come up, you may
inquire. Wouldn't that be better? I put you one question:
did the hen precede the egg or did the egg precede the hen?
Tell me? These are all questions in the grand delusion.
Unless you transcend the astral plane you cannot know. If a
man reading in primary is put a question in trigonometry,
will he understand? When he reaches college, he then begins
Where do we
stand in the educational scheme, spiritually? You spoke of
college and grade school, are we even as far as
kindergarten? Most of us? When does kindergarten begin, when
you break through? Is that kindergarten?
kindergarten here. You start when the kindergarten is
finished. You rise above physical body kindergarten. You are
in the physical body of the outgoing faculties. When you
rise above them, only there religion starts.
So you just start school when you get in here (points to
forehead). You're looking in.
Where the philosophies end, there religion starts. Re:
means back; Ligio: means to bind. The ABC starts from there.
All other things concerning your outgoing faculties, mind or
intellect, are lost. They're all meant for the purpose to
understand That. Good actions beget good reactions but the
doership is not gone. Doership goes when you rise above
physical. Daily you rise and naturally you feel your outward
attachments lessen. You'll never be afraid of death. You'll
be jolly, glad.
Jolly glad to
throw this body away.
Yes, yes. I told you
those who were initiated go jolly, smiling. This is the way
my wife passed away. She said to me, "I am going on the
second, Master told me I am going." I told her, "This is a
very busy day; thousands of people will be here. Tell the
Master not to take you." So on the morning of the third, I
asked her, "Are you quite ready?" She said, "Yes." "All
right, go." She smiled and left. This is a good death. This
fate awaits everyone who puts in time regularly. We daily
die. Guru Nanak said, "Die a hundred times a day." Hundred
times a day. This is daily dying, you see. Take cross daily.
What does that mean? Cross? Can't you remember what
the Cross is?
Oh, yes, take up
your cross daily ...
Yes, this is Cross.
(Master shows cross as the human body with outstretched
arms.) We have symbols, yet have forgotten what they stand
for. They simply took the burden of the cross here on the
shoulder and passed through the streets of Jerusalem. That
is symbolic, but within is Light. Merely taking the cross on
the body is a symbol. The real taking of the cross is to
body consciousness. This is going up.
Guru Nanak a moment ago. There have been some people who
have described seeing you with Guru Nanak. But I was
wondering how those people are able to identify Guru Nanak.
They never saw him in the flesh themselves.
arises from within. And when you compare with the outward
photos, etc., they mostly agree.
But there were
never any photos taken of Guru Nanak, of course.
There are some; few.
paintings. They all meet inside. You recognize them from the
inner sense, from the sixth sense, not the five senses. But
I think it is better to go there and see.
I know. That's
your constant message.
Unless you see for
yourself these things may be interesting to you for a while,
but real interest will arise when you See inside.
I wish everyone of you to become an ambassador. Saints
want everybody who comes to them to become a Saint. Every
king would like his son to be a king, not a minister. Do you
see? Saints want everybody who comes to a Master to become a
Saint - the real Saints and not the business-like saints.
That's another thing. What did Christ say: Beware of the
false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but are ravening
wolves. They appear to be very polite. The only criterion
can be one who can give you a lift, open the inner eyes so
that you see there is light there; not tell you that you'll
get it in due course. What other criterion can there be,
tell me? Their propaganda? No! There is no dearth of
propaganda anywhere. Money can buy anything. Propaganda can
be paid for. But what is the criterion? Can he open the
inner eye, remove the darkness from within for you to see?
There you say, "God is Light."
You speak of the
false prophets as lambs who are ravening wolves.
I don't speak about
the false prophets, Christ did.
Christ, I am quoting
But you also, of
course, have spoken of so-called masters which is another
way of putting it.
A very polite way.
Yes, but haven't
the so-called masters at times been helpful. Now you spoke
of one the other night and we didn't mention his name but he
was of help to me and my wife if only briefly.
You see, you can
learn from some; you can learn in the primary class. If a
teacher is there, be thankful to him. I say, be thankful for
whatever you learn from anyone. When you go to the middle
class, if that very same teacher can give you the college
teachings, well and good. If not, have respect for him for
what you have learned at his feet, but then you will have to
go to someone for further way up. This is something. We
sometimes say we have got no guru after we learn something
from him. Well, everybody has some teacher in the outward
way. Even those who are advanced, they also want to sit
together and enjoy.
terrible sin to admit you have no guru when you really do.
It is deceiving your
own self, and deceiving God. Of course, we are thankful for
anything we learn at the feet of anybody. They have been the
I've learned so many things, I tell you. Lukmanu the
Great was a very wise man. People asked him how he became
wise. He said, "From the fools." You see? What he meant to
say was that anybody could get the same thing in different
ways. The same pain may be expressed in so many ways. I had
an experience once when I went to America. I was called to
be on television. When my name went round like wildfire in
the United States, some of the heads of the religions sat
together and said they would defeat me. They called me on
this television show without informing me that anybody else
would be on. There was a round table. Four or five people
entered and I greeted them, "All right, how do you do. I'm
glad to meet you. Thank you so much. Sit down." One was a
Jew, another was a Roman Catholic, one was a Protestant, one
was something else, and one was the head of a newspaper. "I
hope you won't mind," one of them said, "if we have
something to ask?" "No, you're most welcome to ask any
questions." The television program started and then all of
them, one-two-three, all of them put questions. I replied.
"Anything more?" Then again they asked further questions to
which I replied. Third time around only two or three
remained. They put more questions and I replied. It was a
round table, you see; underneath they were passing messages.
"Put him some more questions," giving signals with their
legs, with their feet. Then the last question of all, "How
do we know that we have known God?" "How do we know that we
have known God?" I told them, "When you have got pain in
your stomach, how do you know?" They shook heads and said,
"You are right." How do we know that we have known God?
Basic teachings are the same. Truth is one. That school is
all right, that religion is all right that turns out a
perfect man. Definition of a perfect man I showed you the
other day in the Manav Kendra pamphlet.*
physical body be in full blossom and his soul be full of
glory, intoxicated with the Ringing Radiance of God,
radiating love all around to the whole creation and wish
peace unto all the world over, under His will.")
What do you
foresee ten years from now for Manav Kendra? What's it going
to be like out there in ten years?
That's a place of
From the troubles of
Maybe in twenty years.
Twenty years for
refuge from the bombs.
It appears like that.
You'll have a common ground to sit together as a man. That's
the only refuge left now, I think.
That's why you
spoke of its ability to accommodate a million persons?
No, that is only
because it is a vast place. If all men sit together, even
now, when they go there ten thousand gather together. It is
like that in the Ashram, too. Twenty-five to thirty thousand
people gather together. In the United States they also had
thousands in one day.
Is this one of
the blessed locations that will not be affected by, shall we
say, atomic radiation?
No place is safe from
this atomic radiation. Seasons have changed from radiation,
you see. But this is an aloof place, north of India. So I
wish that Manav Kendra should be located not only in the
north but also in the east, west and south - all corners -
one in the center, too. Ultimately that will happen.
You imply that
India is probably going to be spared the holocaust that
might hit other parts of the world. Otherwise, these five
centers, of course, would not continue to exist.
India may be the
It may be hit
It may be a place
where there is a field of action. Times have changed for the
worse, you see. So far China came on India like anything and
turned back in only a day. India is the home of our Saints
of Spirituality. Spirituality has been radiating from India
and Central Asia generally. And the Punjab has been
separated from this part. All places (such as this) have
lost sanctity, I tell you. Just the same they still have
their atmospheric affect, less poisoned by the people at
large from the towns. When I came here in 1954 it was all
isolated, nobody was seen, there were hardly one or two out
walking. All doors were open, no theft, nothing of the sort.
There is a vast difference between then and now. It is
better here compared to large towns. But you still find so
many government offices here; and now, theft has just begun
here too. We never dreamt of it before.
penetrated your household even?
Not here, not here.
God is here, but it is coming in this area, I mean. The
poison of the towns has been wafting in now.
As far as we're
concerned here we can throw away our locks.
My point is this place
was all calm and quiet at one time. Even now when you go
back it's more calm and quiet. Have you been to the back. (
Back of Master's house in Rajpur.)
It's very calm and
quiet, all wilderness.
It certainly is.
When I am here usually
in the morning, you'll find me there. I come sometimes for a
day or two, then go.
Back by that
little river back there?
No, by the water tank.
It's very calm. Very atmospheric. You hear the Sound
Principle when you sit calmly in secluded places, where the
poisons of the town have not reached. But the best place is
within. Outer solitude helps to some extent, but a very air
conditioned place is within you.
All right, good night.